The truth is, that Germany can be veeery undemocratic when it comes to radicalism, especially from the right wing. Yes, there are still places were right wing radicalism is tolerated – simply because we have to tolerate it (and because we want to avoid situations we still know from the GDR). And yes, the Germans usually don’t remove these posters, mainly because they don’t want to commit a criminal act. But as soon as the right wing extremists raise their heads, there will be counter-demonstrations by the left wing (which can even lead to violence against right wing extremists unfortunately), and that in a country which isn’t really known for it’s demonstrations and the public awareness of it’s habitants (we are still a country of bourgeois ).

@Nanami
Good point!
We simply don’t take them very seriously. Well, of course we take them seriously because we don’t want them to enter a parliament, but we are also aware of their chances to do so, and those chances are very, very small. And at the few occasions at which their were actually elected into a parliament, they failed big time (and no other party wanted to work with them).

P.S.: The right wing parties haven’t been very successful in the last elections to the Bundestag, not even in the current and not even in their eastern strongholds in the former GDR.

P.S.S.: Minarets are still allowed in Germany.

P.S.S.S.: I’m sure, that you can still move around in Germany without fear of hostilities.

I’m a German who lived for quite extended time periods in France and in the UK. My maternal grandmother was a concentration camp survivor (political prisoner, as her husband was a “socialist”), my grandfather was gassed in Auschwitz. I say this, so it gets clear that I am most assuredly neither a neo-nazi, nor am I even marginally sympathetic to them or their political views.

Quite unlike the majority here and also unlike current actual German law I am however against how Germany and Germans deal with the right wing, as well as with the denial of the Holocaust or similar opinions.

One thing before the explanation of that however: both the NPD and the REP parties are (currently still) valid political parties of Germany. If they were actual fascist (= Nazi) parties and considered ennemies of the state, they would be forbidden. It has been tried to forbid the NPD, but that attempt had been unsuccessful so far. Thus, until they have been decreed forbidden by a German court, everyone has to live with such ultra-right parties.

I am actually a bit astonished that – of all people – Americans would work themselves up over this right, which is considered in the USA to being of utmost importance (First Amendment) and guarded as well as exerted way above the similar constitutional rights of Germany, which do not extend even half as far. I’m even more astonished given the fact that when actually compared, the US political parties are way more “rightist” than even the German conservative parties and definitely within spitting distance of the German REPs in some cases.

In short, as long as those parties are not forbidden and can officially receive votes, they have every right to plaster the cities with their alloted amount of posters, just like any other officially allowed party in the book.

Now, on to my problem with the current governmental stance. Firstly, I believe that more countries ought to emulate the US version of Freedom of Speech, including Germany. People can be educated only on the basis of information. They can form opinions only through discussion and dialogue, and only an exchange of arguments will allow those with the better arguments to win out. Currently, regarding everything ultra-right and Nazi, open discussion is largely suppressed, especially open discussion with ultra-right people and downright fascists. This leads to the pretty idiotic result, that while open discussion is not taking place, especially where it would benefit young people, propaganda “under the cover” is possible. As this propaganda is not out in the open, there is little everyone can do against it. It makes it dead easy for them to attract and recruit especially the youngsters.

Next, not every rightwing or extremely rightwing opinion is without base and grounds. Quite a few of these opinions have their place in a society and are also absolutely natural. We can see this everywhere else on this world, as there’s practically no country without an extreme right (USA included!), often very nationalistic as well. While this is not my political flavor, I can see where current German practice actually drives those who are very rightwing directly into actual Neo-Nazi arms, because it’s a taboo here to openly acknowledge that this set of opinions and beliefs has its justification. Or in other words, the German ultra-right is so immediately put together with Nazi Germany and Nazis, that they are homeless. This is a quite dangerous situation as far as trying to combat Neo-Nazism goes.

The situation is even a bit more perverted than that in Germany. Not only are people of the right wing immediately sculpted Neo Nazis, even people like me, oriented quite on the other side of the political spectrum, find it very difficult to e.g. criticize Israel or just about any kind of topic which is even remotely connected to Jews, things Jewish or Israel. I’ve several times found myself rolled together quite nilly-willy with Neo-Nazis, me of a family having concentration camp prisoners in the close family, for daring to say something considered “anti-Jewish”. This is a snap-to reaction by now in Germany which is beginning to anger intelligent people from the whole spectrum of political orientations. These people, including me, see no problem in being e.g. opposed to Israel’s behaviour and politics, as well as aggressions, regarding Palestine, and still being of a generally leftist or ecologic political stance quite firmly on the grounds of democracy. There is quite some resentment brewing among younger Germans especially in this area.

In conclusion I can only say, that countries like e.g. the USA, or the UK, or even France, all endowed with extreme right parties (all of which are much more successfull than these are in Germany), show no sign of being turned into new nazi regimes. The USA, even though it allows full denial of the holocaust to its citizens, seems to experience no major resurgence of fascist/nazi agitators. Personally I think it is time Germans and Germany is allowed full freedom of speech and discussion.

There’s no way tables can be turned again unless democratic structures are willfully undermined. And this would need to come from the political sphere, not from the people. Hence politicians like Schäuble or Ms. von der Leyen ought to be considered way more of a threat to freedom and democracy in our country, than those few REPs and NPDlers.

Another issue that is difficult for Germans is the increasing violence that is observed in the younger immigrant crowds. My own apartment, and my Grandmothers have been burglarized within the past years, and both times we have caught Turkish immigrants doing the crime. It is fair to say that we are afraid when we read of the subway beatings in Munich, or recently the man who killed the young boy, and is now hiding in Turkey, where the government will not extradite him so he may be judged for his crimes here in Germany. Also the many Al Quaida members who have trained here in Germany who speak of how they wish to rule the world and kill us all who do not believe in Allah. This scares me also. And I do wish they were not in my country, so close to me and those whom I love.

Anyway, all that to say, I understand the anger and frustration that has lead some people to vote radically right. However, this should never be the answer, because these right wing parties stand for much more than just anti-immigrant policies. Many want to kill those whom they hate.
I wish also that there was more insight within the current leading political parties so that the discontent of the citizens would be heard. Also I wish that the countries would become more safe from those people who seek assylum and would pose a threat. I also wish that all new immigrants would rise up to the challenge to make the country they have migrated to their home, and do their part to support it, and not milk the system’s loop holes.

Phil As last blog post..15 Bucks A Glass?

I currently live in Germany, and have relatives here, and have seen first hand how immigrants who have never payed into well-fare, the tax system or contributed to the economy, are given more government handouts than struggling German citizens.

Well, OK, but isn’t there a way to stop giving benefits to those who haven’t earned it without getting nasty and scary-fascist about it?

I see a similar complaints about immigrant-assistance programs in the U.S. funded by taxpayer dollars. There may be a glimmer of truth to the perspective presented deep in there somewhere, but I am not interested in wading through all the hate speech to seek it out.

Most often, what I find — especially in my own family in the U.S. — is that those who could have and should have done better with their own lives in terms of opportunities blown off and lousy education or career choices are mad that their lives suck now and don’t want to anyone else (i.e., immigrants) to have an “easier” time of it than they did.

I’m guessing it’s a shame thing.

cliff1976s last blog post..Rügen? Sylt? Other points north?

I think the question to be asked regarding this topic is WHY German, Austrian etc. parties which lean toward anti-immigrant, racist, religious-angst sentiments are gaining in popularity. I currently live in Germany, and have relatives here, and have seen first hand how immigrants who have never payed into well-fare, the tax system or contributed to the economy, are given more government handouts than struggling German citizens. And although, it may not be politically correct to say, the Muslim threat is a real one, and with the rise in terrorism, and radical religious individuals being trained in this very (German)country, people’s fears are being realized. Unfortunately it is the German governments failure to find a proper balance between welcoming immigrants, while adequately supporting their current citizens. I believe this has lead Germans to “defend” themselves in the only way individuals can assert their own power- by- voting accordingly. I hope that all German parties will observe this alarming trend and adjust their hand-outs, allegiance, if you will accordingly, and find a way to diminish the rising anti- “other” support in this country.